NYCkayaker boathouses on the Hudson river in NYC
Wed Nov 1 17:08:19 EST 2006
I think Bonnie was rounding up the minimum wage ($7.15), and her point
was that even at that small value, the labor hours contributed by many
volunteers easily exceed the monetary value of straight-payment
storage options, which fall between $300 and $700 per season in the
metro area. And by the way, people (families) are actually forced to
make ends meet on minimum wage in NYC; it isn't purely theoretical. All
the more reason the public free paddling programs are key to equity.
As for no-hassle public access to the water, it would be great and we
should strive for it. But for many urban agencies that will constitute
a cultural change, and those come slowly.
On Nov 1, 2006, at 4:53 PM, David Gottlieb wrote:
> Perhaps an hour is worth $10 to you, but to live in NYC and environs,
> one needs much more than $10 per hour. $10 an hour after taxes won’t
> even cover rent or mortgage in our area for a month.
> That aside, what NYC needs, are public boat ramps where I can bring
> my kayak unimpeded like I can elsewhere along the Hudson. I live
> outside the city in Rockland County where there are a number of access
> points, not enough. But at these places, no one ever questions me when
> I put my kayak in. I have the right to kayak if I wish — alone or with
> others, unimpeded.... It is wonderful!!!!
> On 11/1/06 11:13 AM, "firstname.lastname@example.org"
> <email@example.com> wrote:
>> Problem with the bike rack analogy is that our "bikes" need permanent
>> storage. Bike racks (and dog runs, and basketball courts, and all
>> that type of public space dedicated to specific uses) end up getting
>> used by a whole lot of different people. For me to keep my kayaks in
>> the park requires that one specific kayak-sized chunk of real estate
>> be devoted exclusively to my personal use. That's a privilege (one
>> I'm willing to pay for rather handsomely, as are the DTBH folks -
>> only difference being that I pay for mine in cash, they pay for
>> theirs in hours, & in fact if you assume that an hour is worth $10,
>> they pay quite a bit more than I do) & I don't lose sight of that
>> when I'm thinking about the storage problems in the Park.
>> Actually that's one of the arguments that's been made in trying to
>> convince the Powers that Be to let us keep paddling out of the barge
>> - barge stores a whole lotta private boats while actually increasing
>> public space in the park, not decreasing it.
>> Beyond that -
>> Seems like we're all ("we" being both the capitalist & socialist
>> models of boathouse operation in the Hudson River Park) in the same
>> boat right now.
>> Easy to get all sectarian when our overall turf is threatened. Say,
>> "We deserve this storage more than they do, and here's why". Think
>> that's a little shortsighted, though. We see our internal divisions
>> so clearly, but the people who are making the decisions that affect
>> us don't.
>> This is sort of like back when the Human-Powered Boating Group had
>> been pulled together - to paraphrase Jim W., we were being presented
>> as a problem to which a certain person was presenting himself as the
>> solution. If we'd sat there & said "Well, we at Pier 63 encourage
>> training & blah blah blah, but those folks down at the downtown
>> boathouse, well, there's folks down there might be a problem" (and
>> vice-versa), the whole "Let's quiz all the motor vessels in the
>> harbor, powerboats on up, for their specific annoying-kayak stories"
>> might not have been dismissed quite as easily as it was when we
>> pulled together, presented a united front to the various harbour
>> regulatory agencies that came to that meeting.
>> There's been some of that going on already - Nancy's post comes from
>> someone who's in an interesting position, given that she's on the
>> Advisory Council due to her HRWA role, and active as a DTBH
>> volunteer, and also a regular at Pier 63 with New York Kayak Polo.
>> She got the barge on the agenda at the late August Advisory Council
>> meeting (where in fact Jim W. made an argument in favor of trying to
>> let Pier 63 stay open for a while longer, using the long period when
>> the DTBH was shut off the water by their pier closure while nothing
>> was done as a parallel - unfortunately the Trust didn't bite, there's
>> the whole basketball city nightmare tenant thing complicating matter,
>> but Jim did speak up for us & I know at least a couple of people I
>> talked to really noticed that); I think that meeting did a LOT to
>> show the Trust & the Council that there's a lot more paddling, in a
>> lot of different styles, going on in the park than they realized -
>> Think this failure to fund the boathouse at Pier 26 is just another
>> reflection of this failure to understand the size & breadth of the
>> park-based paddling community, and speaking for myself, I think it's
>> probably more productive to respond as a member of that community,
>> not as a Pier 63 person.
>> Bad time for infighting.
>> Just thinking out loud...
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: "Gordon, Peter"
>>> Sent: Oct 31, 2006 11:27 AM
>>> To: Nancy Brous , firstname.lastname@example.org
>>> Cc: email@example.com
>>> Subject: Re: NYCkayaker boathouses on the Hudson river in NYC
>>> I think that Nancy's points are well taken and we all applaud the
>>> public kayaking program that DTBH runs. I'm sure Mike didn't mean to
>>> sound pejorative about the people who run it. But, most people who
>>> are kayakers don't really want to limit themselves to queuing up on
>>> a Saturday to paddle around in a tub. Most of us want something a
>>> bit sleeker and given the risks of closed cockpit kayaks, they are
>>> unlikely to be made available to the general public, so private
>>> kayaks are necessary. Obviously there are options for storing
>>> kayaks in the city, but storage often ends up being more expensive
>>> than the kayak itself over a couple of years. I know we New Yorkers
>>> are expected to shell out for everything, but many people cannot
>>> afford to pay out quite as much cash as is required by the storage
>>> facilities available. I think Mike's point is that since most of us
>>> don't have storage space in our homes, and many don't have cars, the
>>> situation is a bit different from other parts of the country where
>>> these issues don't arise, and a reasonably priced boat storage
>>> facility within the city would be a great help for people who are or
>>> want to be kayakers. Perhaps the analogy should be that the city
>>> does provide bike racks where bikes can be stored -- and many would
>>> argue that there should be more. I don't think that we should feel
>>> bad because people's private bikes are chained up on public
>>> property. Perhaps a kayak is more like a bike than a car.
>>> Peter Gordon
>>> From: firstname.lastname@example.org on behalf of Nancy Brous
>>> Sent: Tue 10/31/2006 10:44 AM
>>> To: email@example.com
>>> Cc: firstname.lastname@example.org
>>> Subject: Re: NYCkayaker boathouses on the Hudson river in NYC
>>> mike, as i tried to point out, the dtbh was the sole respodent to
>>> the very public rfp put out by hudson river park for the boathouse
>>> they operate at pier 96 at 56th street. i'm not sure how you see
>>> this as translating to a monopoly.
>>> neither the dtbh nor floating the apple provides private boat
>>> storage. the park dictates what type of activities are acceptable
>>> at public boathouses built on public land with public funds, and
>>> they insist, for good reason, that these facilities are open to the
>>> public for a certain number of hours during certain times of year
>>> free or at a very low cost. so in effect the dtbh does provide
>>> public kayak storage--for kayaks to be used by the public, for free.
>>> it seems that there is often confusion on this list about public
>>> storage versus private storage of kayaks. private storage is when
>>> you, as a kayak owner, rent a spot for your personal kayak (which is
>>> not used by the public), sort of like renting a parking spot for
>>> your car. public storage would be storage of kayaks used by the
>>> public on public land or in public facilities, much as there are
>>> public tennis courts and parks which can be used by the public. i
>>> doubt anyone wonders why they cant park their private cars in
>>> central park or build a private storage shed on NYCs public tennis
>>> courts or ball fields. i cant fathom why anyone would expect (or
>>> want) a public park to encourage use of its space for private kayak
>>> (or any other) storage.
>>> that said, hudson river park will consider a response to the rfp
>>> for one of the new boathouses which includes private kayak storage
>>> as part of a proposal for the operating and programming of the
>>> public boathouse, provided that the proposal satisfies the public
>>> use elements as well.
>>> if it is storage rather than monopolies which you are most
>>> concerned about, there is currently a group of independent kayakers
>>> working to ensure that we maintain adequate private kayak storage in
>>> hudson river park, particularly at the pier 63 maritime barge when
>>> it relocates to pier 66a next season. we stand to lose
>>> approximately 70 private kayak slots if the DEC permits issued to
>>> the barge's owner are not ammended.
>>> ithis effort has been mentioned on this and several other lists.
>>> at at least 2 recent park and community board meetings there was a
>>> great showing of paddlers who were willing to take their time to
>>> come out in support of such storage and show the strength of the
>>> numbers in the paddling community.
>>> this loose affiliation of independent kayakers (some who need the
>>> storage and some who just support the cause) welcomes anyone with
>>> ideas and energy to work for this common goal.
>>> a yahoo group called HRPAccess has been set up for anyone
>>> interested in helping.
>>> there are other groups working toward getting public launches and
>>> boathouses set up eventually on the east river in manhattan, in
>>> queens, brooklyn, staten island, hoboken, governor's island, on the
>>> harlem river, etc. i'm sure that if you want to become involved in
>>> a constructive way you can find more information online or i may be
>>> able to help point you in the direction of a few of these groups.
>>> in the interim, as i mentioned, there is NYC parks dept-run kayak
>>> storage at the 79th street boat basin, private storage at pier 40 at
>>> new york kayak company, and you might want to contact the inwood
>>> canoe club as well to see what their policies are.
>>> so there is storage on the hudson in nyc now, and if we want to
>>> keep it and hopefully add more, we will have to work for it rather
>>> than bemoaning its lack and waiting for the kayak storage fairy to
>>> pay NYC a visit.
>>> On 10/30/06, mike pidel <email@example.com
>>> <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> > wrote:
>>>> There can be a problem with when one organization with a different
>>>> mission than other local paddlers monopolizes the available
>>>> D TBH does not offer public storage of kayaks. Many paddlers want
>>>> public storage of kayaks without having to volunteer their lives
>>>> If there was more public storage of kayaks, there would be a larger
>>>> kayaking community. Many new and seasoned paddlers don't further
>>>> their involvement with kayaking due to no place to keep a kayak in
>> The NYCKayaker mailing list is hosted by www.rockandwater.net, and
>> is a public service offered to the kayaking community by the Hudson
>> River Watertrail Association. Learn more about HRWA at www.hrwa.org
>> To unsubscribe or change delivery options:
> The NYCKayaker mailing list is hosted by www.rockandwater.net, and is
> a public service offered to the kayaking community by the Hudson River
> Watertrail Association. Learn more about HRWA at www.hrwa.org
> To unsubscribe or change delivery options:
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