NYCkayaker undue govt interference in freedom
Harry J. Bubbins
carrotjuice at friendsofbrookpark.org
Wed Sep 5 00:28:03 EDT 2007
Suggestions were called for
Well paddling as an individual, or friends, go for it, as we like.
Yes, prcedents cant be made that detract from non polluting transportation,
and the times just did a big piece on the tug guy and how they started the
event etc etc
In regards to a citywide event to develop momentum, well, when there are
certain groups and organizations involved, we need to go through hoops,
that's reality, alas
The hoops get less narrow we must never forget, when there are people that
are or that we all know will not go through any hoops.
If whatever amount of motorized boats are suggested, and paddling is
pintedly a way to avoid motorized boats though, then why don't the coast
huard, nypd, nyfd, nycdep, and whatever other govt entity that we pay
millions in dollars of tax monies for provide the boats?
On 9/4/07 10:29 PM, "nyckayaker-request at rockandwater.net"
<nyckayaker-request at rockandwater.net> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: 5 Boro: Three more motor boats (Graeme Birchall)
> 2. Lecture on NY harbor - Sat Sept/8, 2:30PM (Graeme Birchall)
> 3. Re: 5 Boro: Three more motor boats (sandy sobanski)
> 4. Re: 5 Boro: Now we need four motor boats (Carter Craft)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:49:53 -0400
> From: Graeme Birchall <Graeme_Birchall at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: NYCkayaker 5 Boro: Three more motor boats
> Cc: nyckayaker at rockandwater.net
> Message-ID: <46DDFD31.9050305 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Erik;
>
>> Now the CG wants four safety boats
>
> Maybe it is time to protest this madness. I went up to Pier 96 on
> Sunday morning ? only to find that the Downtown Boathouse public
> kayaking program had been closed down by the CG on account of the tug
> boat race that was about begin. So I got into my own kayak and paddled
> out to the end of the embayment to take some pictures.
>
> The staff in the CG cutter on patrol obviously had no clue as to what
> constituted safe kayaking in NYC. I was well out off the channel, and
> clearly indicated that I was not going anywhere. But they kept yelling
> at me on their loud speaker that I was "going to have trouble", and that
> my situation was "unsafe". I ignored them and instead played with my
> expensive (non-waterproof) digital camera.
>
> After a few minutes the race began and the tugboats churned by. They
> kicked up a nice wake that at the edge of the embayment was at most 3ft
> high, but probably less. The wake was barely observable back at the
> dock. So I bounced up and down a bit and got some nice pictures ?
> except for when for the CG cutter parked directly in front of me in
> order to "protect me". The biggest wakes, which were still no bother,
> actually came from CG cutter - when they ran off to take care of the race.
>
> The waves generated by the tugboats were smaller than those encountered
> in the Pier 96 embayment on a windy day. And they were much less that
> what are often encountered out on the harbor, let alone in the ocean.
>
> As we all know, the CG are the self-proclaimed experts at water safety
> in this country. Yet they were obviously out of their depth on Sunday
> morning. I'm not sure what the problem was, but I suspect that they
> thought that even tiny swells were a hazard for kayakers. If they keep
> believing this, and keep acting accordingly, they will eventually drive
> all organized kayaking activities off the harbor. This will actually
> make the harbor less safe for kayakers, so it not a situation that we
> should encourage. I'm open to suggestions as to how we can educate the
> CG on this issue. Comments please...
>
> Graeme Birchall
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:55:23 -0400
> From: Graeme Birchall <Graeme_Birchall at verizon.net>
> Subject: NYCkayaker Lecture on NY harbor - Sat Sept/8, 2:30PM
> To: nyckayaker at rockandwater.net
> Message-ID: <46DDFE7B.2020308 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Greetings;
>
> Those of you who are not going kayaking next Saturday (Sept/8) may want
> to consider going to the NY Public Library main branch at 42nd St at
> 2:30PM for a free public lecture by the New York Map Society.
>
> SUBJECT: "A Geographic Bicentennial".
>
> PRESENTER: John Cloud
>
> DESCRIPTION: The oldest scientific agency in the U. S. government, NOAA
> is descended from the Survey of the Coast, which Thomas Jefferson
> authorized in 1807. The Survey began as an exercise but became an
> institution, the Coast Survey, later known as the Coast and Geodetic
> Survey, and since 1970, as NOAA. Under Ferdinand Hassler's direction
> (1832-1843), the very first initiative of the Survey was to establish a
> geodetic network around New York's harbor and bay. This presentation on
> the cartographic treasures of the Survey will include imagery from a
> recent scanning project of Coast Survey records in the National
> Archives, including many original manuscript maps and rediscovered
> telescopic views of pastoral New York that have not been seen in more
> than a century.
>
> LOCATION: The meeting will be in the Library's auditorium. Ask at the
> Information Desk if in doubt.
>
> The NY Map Society website is:
>
> www.nymapsociety.org
>
> Graeme
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 18:32:41 -0700 (PDT)
> From: sandy sobanski <dragonsandy1 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NYCkayaker 5 Boro: Three more motor boats
> To: Graeme Birchall <Graeme_Birchall at verizon.net>
> Cc: nyckayaker at rockandwater.net
> Message-ID: <972853.3056.qm at web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I was by Graeme's side on the river. It was ridiculous to close us down that
> morning. Yes-bad precedents can be set-bigtime here,
> Sandy
>
> Graeme Birchall <Graeme_Birchall at verizon.net> wrote: Erik;
>
>> Now the CG wants four safety boats
>
> Maybe it is time to protest this madness. I went up to Pier 96 on
> Sunday morning ? only to find that the Downtown Boathouse public
> kayaking program had been closed down by the CG on account of the tug
> boat race that was about begin. So I got into my own kayak and paddled
> out to the end of the embayment to take some pictures.
>
> The staff in the CG cutter on patrol obviously had no clue as to what
> constituted safe kayaking in NYC. I was well out off the channel, and
> clearly indicated that I was not going anywhere. But they kept yelling
> at me on their loud speaker that I was "going to have trouble", and that
> my situation was "unsafe". I ignored them and instead played with my
> expensive (non-waterproof) digital camera.
>
> After a few minutes the race began and the tugboats churned by. They
> kicked up a nice wake that at the edge of the embayment was at most 3ft
> high, but probably less. The wake was barely observable back at the
> dock. So I bounced up and down a bit and got some nice pictures ?
> except for when for the CG cutter parked directly in front of me in
> order to "protect me". The biggest wakes, which were still no bother,
> actually came from CG cutter - when they ran off to take care of the race.
>
> The waves generated by the tugboats were smaller than those encountered
> in the Pier 96 embayment on a windy day. And they were much less that
> what are often encountered out on the harbor, let alone in the ocean.
>
> As we all know, the CG are the self-proclaimed experts at water safety
> in this country. Yet they were obviously out of their depth on Sunday
> morning. I'm not sure what the problem was, but I suspect that they
> thought that even tiny swells were a hazard for kayakers. If they keep
> believing this, and keep acting accordingly, they will eventually drive
> all organized kayaking activities off the harbor. This will actually
> make the harbor less safe for kayakers, so it not a situation that we
> should encourage. I'm open to suggestions as to how we can educate the
> CG on this issue. Comments please...
>
> Graeme Birchall
>
> **********************************************************************
> The NYCKayaker mailing list is hosted by www.rockandwater.net, and is a public
> service offered to the kayaking community by the Hudson River Watertrail
> Association. Learn more about HRWA at www.hrwa.org
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 22:18:54 -0400
> From: "Carter Craft" <ccraft at waterwire.net>
> Subject: Re: NYCkayaker 5 Boro: Now we need four motor boats
> To: "jeff folmsbee" <folmsbee at gmail.com>,
> <nyckayaker at rockandwater.net>, <bob1may at optonline.net>, "Erik Baard"
> <erik at baard.com>, "Carter Craft" <ccraft at waterwire.net>
> Message-ID:
> <C87A9DDBBB48824182F956C5AA6048DF018BE3 at mwa-srv.waterwire.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> thx Jeff I already talked to McBrady who turned me over to another permits
> guy. All very reasonable concerns, including: they have no map of the route,
> they have not been given a firm number of paddlers, and this is a first time
> event. There are other concerns, but those are the main ones. My suggestions
> to Erik and the other organizers would be ~ a) make a map of the route on a
> nautical chart. I had hoped to do this tonight but my new operating system
> can't run the Maptech software I painstakingly downloaded this winter. 2)
> settle on a max number of official participants by middle of the day tomorrow
> and let's stick to it 3) commit to having 1 marine radio for every x number of
> kayakers (five or seven?) 4) designate a Lead and a Sweep kayak who can
> communicate to the lead safety boat where the pack is and when it passes under
> bridges or other nautical reference points so this can be communicated to
> Vessel Traffic Control as needed and 5) choose the most prudent crossin!
> g route from Brooklyn to SI since this wide open and heavily trafficked
> expanse poses the greatest risk. To me this prob means either paddling south
> along Brooklyn to Pier 4 at 58th St, mustering the group there and paddling en
> masse across the Harbor, or else mustering just south of Gov Island and timing
> the crossing to Jersey City, maybe towards the Claremont channel, well south
> of the Statue tour boat traffic and timed to miss the SI ferry. There may be
> other ways to address some of these issues, or even other issues entirely that
> come to mind amongst us or USCG...I'm scheduled to talk again with USCG at
> 0830 tomorrow, so if you have other ideas or issues please fire away!
> Looking fwd to the event,
> C
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "jeff folmsbee" <folmsbee at gmail.com>
> Sent: 9/4/07 8:26:16 PM
> To: "nyckayaker at rockandwater.net" <nyckayaker at rockandwater.net>,
> "bob1may at optonline.net" <bob1may at optonline.net>, "Erik Baard"
> <erik at baard.com>, "Carter Craft" <ccraft at waterwire.net>
> Subject: Re: Re: NYCkayaker 5 Boro: Now we need four motor boats
>
> Folks,
>
> Carter may already be all over this, but if you think it would help, I
> could try to hook you up with USCG LCDR Mike McBrady, who's in charge
> of all things CG on this part of the river, to see if you can cut
> through some of these challenges.
> best,
>
> Jeff Folmsbee
> Hudson River Paddlers Guild
>
> On 9/4/07, jeff folmsbee <placeboentertainment2001 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> --- bob1may at optonline.net wrote:
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:59:34 +0000 (GMT)
>>> From: bob1may at optonline.net
>>> To: nyckayaker <nyckayaker at rockandwater.net>
>>> Subject: Re: NYCkayaker 5 Boro: Now we need four
>>> motor boats
>>>
>>> The regulations are in 33 CFR 100, subchapter
>>>
>> Ghttp://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=88a6a1aec9a7b54e3b20037a7e
>> 3aa1eb&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title33/33cfrv1_02.tplThe
>>> prevailing theme is "safety of life". The local
>>> commander is supposed to ask himself if the event
>>> presents "extra or unusual hazards to the safety of
>>> life".The local commander is entitled to make
>>> "special local regulations" for the event. The term
>>> safety boat is not used in the law.The local
>>> commander is entitled to detail active duty CG boats
>>> to patrol the event if he deems it necessary for
>>> safety. Apparently this event does not pose
>>> sufficient hazard to the safety of life to warrant
>>> that.The local commander is entitled to detail
>>> active duty CG officers or petty officers to enforce
>>> the special local regulations, such officers to be
>>> on board private vessels provided by the organizers
>>> for the purpose. Since he apparently hasn't made
>>> any plans for officers to ride on the "safety
>>> boats", or even apparently made any special local
>>> regulations, this event does not seem to pose
>>> sufficient hazard to warrant this action.The local
>>> commander may also utillize private vessels placed
>>> at the disposition of the CG by members of the CG
>>> Auxiliary to patrol the course to promote safety,
>>> effect rescues and direct traffic. Again, this
>>> legally available action was not taken. In this
>>> case, the vessels have no authority to enforce
>>> special local regulations.So where do the captains
>>> of the "safety boats" stand? They have no
>>> enforcement authority. What liability do they
>>> have? They are there at the direction of the CG to
>>> provide "safety". If - God forbid - something
>>> tragic were to happen, do you think the CG will
>>> stand up to defend them?The more I read the law, the
>>> more I believe that imposing a requirement for
>>> "safety boats" upon an organizer is an illegal
>>> request.Bob----- Original Message -----From: sandy
>>> sobanski Date: Tuesday, September 4, 2007 5:16
>>> pmSubject: Re: NYCkayaker 5 Boro: Now we need four
>>> motor boatsTo: Erik Baard , nyckayaker > So....Is
>>> there some real rules out there? Or-do they just
>>> make > the number of motorboats to escort stuff up
>>> as they go along? > What is the story? Is there
>>> some basis to it?> > Erik Baard wrote: Hi All,> >
>>> Carter Craft of the Metropolitan Waterfront Alliance
>>> has kindly > taken up the dialogue. I did question
>>> the officer who > communicated this order about the
>>> thought process underlying it. > His answers were
>>> unsatisfactory. I also noted that the potential >
>>> pool of volunteer motorboaters was smaller than
>>> usual due to a > concurrent Manhattan Island
>>> Foundation swim event. Motors boats > should be a
>>> higher priority for the swim event. Unfortunately he
>>>> became angry and a bit foul, unlike his
>>> predecessor, who was a > reasonable gentleman and a
>>> partner to kayaking efforts.> > We'll work it
>>> through though. And maybe he was having a bad >
>>> morning? One compromise might be to have one boat on
>>> the Harlem > River and three for the crossing of the
>>> Upper Bay. > > The CG must know that its safety
>>> mission will be compromised if > by imposing
>>> unreasonable demands it drives the kayak community's
>>>> group outings underground, or under water, as it
>>> were. :)> > Salty regards,> > Erik> > Erik
>>> Baard> > http://www.licboathouse.org>
>>> http://www.naturecalendar.com> > > > > --------
>>> Original Message --------> Subject: Re: NYCkayaker 5
>>> Boro: Now we need four motor boats> From:
>>> bob1may at optonline.net> Date: Tue, September 04, 2007
>>> 3:42 pm> To: nyckayaker > > I think a dialog with
>>> the CG needs to be established on this.> > >From my
>>> quick reading of the CFR, I don't see "safety boats"
>>>> mentioned. To me this seems like an arbitrary
>>> requirement that > is outside the CG's power to
>>> actually require.> > The CG may establish "special
>>> local regulations" required to > "insure the safety
>>> of life" during the event. It is not clear > how
>>> any number of private boats, with no regulatory or >
>>> enforcement power is to do this.> > The CG may
>>> assign active CG vessels to patrol the event, or CG
>>>> auxiliary vessels, or private vessels provided by
>>> the event > organizer - in which case a CG officer
>>> must be assigne! d to > each vessel.> > So, at the
>>> very least I think you need to respond "Ok, we'll >
>>> supply safety vessels. Where do we pick-up the
>>> officers that > you are required to provide per 33
>>> CFR 100.40(b)?"> > Bob> > ----- Original Message
>>> -----> From: Erik Baard > Date: Tuesday, September
>>> 4, 2007 1:41 pm> Subject: NYCkayaker 5 Boro: Now we
>>> need four motor boats> To: nyckayaker > > > > > >
>>> Ahoy'all,> > Now the CG wants four safety boats.
>>> Consider this an SOS. This > sudden jump to a
>>> requirement of four boats, with a possibility > of a
>>> second, is a huge logistical challenge (and yes, I
>>> agree > with many of you who will say it's overkill)
>>> will stretch us. > Let's meet the challenge!> >
>>> Erik > > Erik Baard> > http://www.licboathouse.org>
>>> http://www.naturecalendar.com> >
>>> ---------------------------------> >
>>>
>> **********************************************************************The
>>> NYCKayaker mailing list is hosted by
>>> www.rockandwater.net, and is a public service
>>> offered to the kayaking community by the Hudson
>>> River Watertrail Association. Learn more about HRWA
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>> **********************************************************************>
>>> The NYCKayaker mailing list is hosted by
>>> www.rockandwater.net, > and is a public service
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>>> River Watertrail Association. Learn more about HRWA
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>>>>> ---------------------------------> Moody
>>> friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their
>>> life, your > story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo!
>>> Games. >
>>>>
>> **********************************************************************
>>> The NYCKayaker mailing list is hosted by
>>> www.rockandwater.net, and is a public service
>>> offered to the kayaking community by the Hudson
>>> River Watertrail Association. Learn more about HRWA
>>> at www.hrwa.org
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe or change delivery options:
>>>
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>> **********************************************************************
>> The NYCKayaker mailing list is hosted by www.rockandwater.net, and is a
>> public service offered to the kayaking community by the Hudson River
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> End of NYCKayaker Digest, Vol 25, Issue 6
> *****************************************
>
Harry J. Bubbins
Director
646.206.5288
http://friendsofbrookpark.org
Mail: PO Box 801, The South Bronx, NY 10454
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